Category: philosophy/religion topics
We are all sitting around watching the Christmas Specials and Pagents turn into X-mas Specials and Pagents. This is something I am firmly believing in because no one has ever asked a Jew to turn huanukah into Xuhkah or Quanzah into X-zah or something ridiculous like that Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ and if you dont like it celebrate something else but dont try to change a holiday because it make YOU feel batter.
Jen
wait, wait, wait, don't try to change a holiday?
Are you awair that it was the christians that actually changed this holiday?
This like so many holidays was created by the pope to make more pagons attend church rather than there own holiday celebrations.
This was instituted because in many countries of the day christianity was required of those who lived in them.
So, who really should be not continueing to undermine the worship practices of a group? Even if the group in question is long dead and many socities have moved on.
Just my thoughts even though I've got nothing against christmas. Just couldn't resist putting the hypocracy of your statement on display.
James is right...Christmas was actually on December 5 or 6 depending on the part of Europe you're from...and it had absolutely nothing to do with "Christ"!!
It's believed that Jesus wasn't actually even born in the month of december. It's also true that the holiday was taken by Christianity centuries ago. That said, this is here and now. All that has now happened is people are basically turning it now into an excuse - an excuse! to be nice. "Oh why not, it's Christmas." And also they use it as an excuse to spend vast amounts of money, completely missing the point of Christmas. If you don't believe in Jesus that's your choice, but people need to learn to show a little respect to the people who do. And even if Jesus didn't exist, his idea and purpose is also something to be respected. That's my belief.
Right then... listen you thick ones then stop fucking contradicting your own God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean there are Christians who have said that and what do they do, just the opposite. Spend, spend spend spend! Now, there is also the little saying, about christians being the nicest people on earth... what...? Hell no! I've seen a lot of cruelty from Christians... especially from the ones who say that kind of thing. Stuff like you'll go to hell! Shit... That's a real nice way to advertise your religion "if you don't join our little group you will surely go to hell!" what kind of Damn nice person advertises that way. Wouldn't it be wiser to fucking encourage them? What about all the hell you give people for their sins?
to the poster who said, "people need to learn to respect for people who believe in Jesus", it goes both ways. people need to learn that lots of people don't believe in a God, and respect that, too.
see posts 4 and 5 here as proof that those of both sides need to be more open, its not a one sided street nore should it be.
That being said, you're saying to forget what was done to the pagon faiths worshiping practices because that wasn't here and now, but applying the same concept your argument thus becomes invalidated because the moral shift in society is part of the here and now, not views hundreds of years old. Things like generation gaps lead to these kinds of things. The world isn't stationarry. From which we can circle back up to my origional point that piece and tolerance from both sides is needed for best results.
Will this happen? Probably not.
Doesn't it contridict many viewpoints expressed by those of many religions? Surely.
This is due in part that to represent the world in words you usually have to split and catigorize things. The moste basic level of this is a dicodomy. These are always false because of things like perspective, reasoning, completeness and quality of information... Its the way humans have been taught to act as a hole which is undermineing comunications to a degree each day.
Often we must look to intent, and in this case, all worshipers or non worshipers of any or no faith should be respected for the reasons above.
Now, I'll get my head out of the clowds and accept this isn't going to happen any time soon.
piece,
Striker.
I agree that Christians changed the Christmas holiday to make it match their beliefs.
Rachel, I've never heard any saying about Christians being the nicest people. I don't think nice is a general quality of any group of people. Although we christians are told that we are to set an example and treat others with kindness, that is unfortunately not the case. But remember that one or a few people does not represent an entire group. And too, you should not hold Christians or any other religious people to higher standards than any other group of people. At the end of the day, we all have the ability to experience the same emotions, and all, if not most of us, have prejudices and judgments.
We are all of us born imperfect. Christian or not, you need only look around to see that's the truth. Those who embody the hypocritical CHristians are not representatives of what Christianity truely stands for. The fact is that people need to stop being so offended when the word Christmas is spoken. Even though North America was built on Christian Values, and CHristmas is not only representative of CHristianity, but also America/canada. In the end it isn't about the spending, and it isn't about religious freedom. it's about certain people getting uptight and offended with the word CHristmas, and what it represents. That's almost always what it comes down to. We as humans get offended so very easily, and our anger is poured out on things that are not deserving of it.
quite true. I approached this as more of an intelectual style of thing.
Thanks to all those who've brought up the pagans here! There are many today who are reviving ancient religions and traditions. I myself am a Hellenic Polytheist and we have something called Heliogenna at this time of year. That happens to be a modern practice, though we do have Posideon and several other things, which are ancient at this time of year as well. My friends in Religio Romana are celebrating Saturnalia and others in the Norse religion are celebrating the yule etc. My atheist friends, for not everyone believes in a deity as has been stated, are just glad to have time off of work and school. From what I've read, 6 December is actually the birthday of St. Nick. Jesus, according to scholarly sources, was most likely born in spring, since shephurds don't watch over their flocks in the middle of December. I personally celebrate Giftmas and have no problem with it, so long as it's not only about who gets the most expensive thing. I mean, we can all be nice around this time of year. It's cold and nasty out in many places and we all need a bit of cheering up. Plus, I love the Santa shows and spending fun time with my family. I actually call it Giftmas, not out of any political correctness, since I hate that idea, but out of a respect for Christians. If I don't believe in Christ, how can I say that I'm celebrating Christmas? Nicest people on Earth? Is that why they raped, plundered, murdered, forceably converted pagans, destroied sacred places and mocked The Gods? Of course, most of that isn't going on today but some of it still is. Using my faith as an example, Hellenic Polytheists today, in 2009 CE, are still persecuted against in the homeland of our religion and only recently won the right to worship openly in ancient places. Sadly, most Christians, the truly good ones and the average ones on the street, don't even know about any of this. The last few posters are examples of what I mean by "good" Christians. I'm sure they wouldn't burn my books or hurt me just because my beliefs are different from their's. It's just that since some of this stuff still goes on, and since many don't recognise nonChristians or nonmonotheists, it's kind of hard to forget it and put it behind us. Still, if they choose to celebrate Christmas, I have no problem with that. I've heard people say that they don't like hearing "happy holidays" but think of it this way. What if I were to wish you a happy Saturnalia? That would exclude all the other faiths celebrating at this time of year, including my own. lol
Yes, that kindness crap...
How do you really know that what you may see as disrespect to your traditions is actually disrespect? How much do these feelings of being disrespected have to do with a general discomfort with social change, especially when it means society does not see your ways as being the default ones anymore? How much does this have to do with majority versus minority and any privileges that go along with being a majority?
You know what pisses me off? Is when Christians say shit like God is jealous of you riding roller coasters." and,"If you put something above God y'll go to Hell!" That pisses me off!
just think about. you can't get christmas without christ. everyone wants to blame the christian but infact it was the pagens that changed it. believe me, i studied this. i'm a new christian and i hate to see us getting blamed for changing this holiday. i just wanted to let you know that through the blood of christ, you can have eternal life :). just saying.... merry christmas to you all and god bless you.
God bless you all!
I don't think anyone will agree here. People don't want to be told their way is wrong, and it seems (seems being a key word here) that most of the people who hate religion either hate it for the sake of hating it, or because of a few (or sadly sometimes even one) bad experience. Religion isn't a bad thing. It provides comfort, a guideline of how to live our lives which generally won't make us go astray, and gives us hope for the future. Those rapist murderer/holier than thou christians (or muslims for that matter) are not even close to the majority. That's like blaming all muslims for the horrible mistakes and odd beliefs of a handful of two of bad people.
Christmas is a celebration of the birth of CHrist in North America. That is its purpose. It is also a celebration of friends and family. If a person doesn't believe in CHrist that's fine. I won't even say the harsh thing that they should not participate at all in the holiday because that's just rude. I just appreciate being allowed to say Merry Christmas in the place I work, or heaven forbid I say it and some one person gets offended because they don't believe. Maybe it isn't even a question of respect. Maybe it's just the case of a few uptight individuals ruining it for everyone. Personally if someone comes up to me and says Happy Janaka (sorry, no idea how to spell that) or some other religious holiday, I'm not going to get offended. Heck, maybe I'll even try to understand them. It's a good conversation starter.
just to clear things up for the last poster, I'm an atheist because I've done my research...not because of any other reason. it's what makes sense to me...just as your religion makes sense to you.
Here's yet another question. Is feeling offended the worst thing a person can feel?
apart from the few odd posts, this bord is going quite well. Lets keep it up.
Perhaps putting the Christ back in Christmas excludes bitter belly-aching - at least for those of us who believe. I too don't like the getting offendded part, and several African American folks took at least some time to talk about their Quanzah experiences with me - something they would not have, were I uptight, offended and a general spoil sport. Even before conversion I found Christmas to be fun, and any means by which to elevate human existence from the mundane, or unhappy situations we find ourselves in, is a good one in my book.
As my father used to say, nobody likes a wet blanket and really that's what the whole offended business is all about, be it from extremist Christians, atheists, muslims, or let's just sum them all up: spoil sports. That's all it is.
That being said, I think anyone interested in improving the situation for all concerned would not wish to pick a fight.
Naturally for some of us, Christmas is pivotal to our religion, one of two central holidays as was explained to me anyway. For many of us, and others as well, it's a time where families can get together, share gifts and time andn plenty other festivities. Perhaps it's a good time to cease and desist fight-picking for a change. Just a thought ...
I'm not trying to pick a fight; I'm simply stating my beliefs. I'm not against Christmas...just don't get into it like most of the world.
You gotta learn not to try and wear the shoe that doesn't fit. Your posts didn't appear at all like fight-picking. Post 1 in this instance did, and anyone who tries to force others to scrub out data pertaining to them or their religion just to ease the spoil sports. I don't see you spoiling anyone else's day; you're just being honest. I can respect that. If atheists were ever to come up with their own holiday (don't say it won't happen because humans tend to do that, from all spectra), I would be last in line to be offended ...
I don't suggest the Jewish folks scrub out anything that has to do with Passovernor Muslims with theirs. Jewish people kept their holidays for nearly two millennia under very adverse conditions that none of these newbies that squawk like unfed baby birds have never done.
I don't think atheists need their own holiday. I would suppose most save for the most extremist ones celebrate Christmas and call it Christmas if anything out of tradition. Yes, what they do is more secular and omits the churchy bits, but like somebody tried to point out, those who are offended by Christmas are probably a very small group indeed. I think these days Christians are being fed false information about how big this issue is as a way to manipulate their emotions so they can have a perceived enemy where there is none. Let me state my own case. I'm agnostic. What I celebrate is Christmas, and the way I do it works for me. I couldn't be bothered about what other people call it or how they do it. Doesn't bother me a bit. I mind my own business. In fact, I find it interesting about how other people celebrate these times. Also, despite what people are being told, probably by implication, when a person wishes you happy holidays instead of merry Christmas, they are not spitting upon you or your god, they are sincerely wishing you well. You can't just assume a person is Christian. But like I said, I just don't think most people who aren't Christians are out to get Christians.
I am not trying to pick a fight either although lots of people might say so, but I am just frustrated by stupidity and becoming very bitter.
I am kind of a strategist and philosopher and I got out of christianity because I couldn't find a scrap of reasoning and solid premise. I do not hate it for the sake of hating or for one bad experience. I mucked around in christianity and could not find anything much for the majority of my life. I set out to find reason, and was only told faith. There was one gentleman who remotely started to make a bit of sense.
No, I don't have a problem with someone simply saying Merry Christmas either, but I view it strictly as a comercial holiday. What I do mind is if one whines about how commercialized and according to the original poster one should be, "Putting the Christ back in Christmas" leave people alone. Let consumers be consumers and please if one does not believe in god allow them to leave christ out of Christmas.
Could we perhaps paraphrase from South Park? Let me see. Um ...
Hey there Mister Atheist,
Merry fuckin' Christmas!
put down that Charles Darwin,
And hear some holiday wishes.
'Cause if you didn't notice,
It's Jesus's birthday,
So unless you want to burn in hell,
Then fuckin' celebrate!
Hahahaha, is that what the original poster meant?
Christmas should be banned! I don't believe that Jesus would have wanted teople to be more giving or caring at Christmas than they are during the rest of the year. I believe people should be equally as giving and caring throughout the year. I don't celebrate Christmas any more. I find the festival, whether observed in the Christian or secular way offensive. The sooner it is abolished the better.
amen to the last poster in regards to people being equally nice year round; my thoughts exactly.
Same here. It shouldn't take a holiday to get people to act nicely. But sadly, that's humanity for you or at least, it's the society in which we live.
yes, unfortunately it is. I don't ever see that changing.
I agree with this. I always make a point of writing Christmas in full. although I am more agnostic than anything at the moment, I still value the Christian aspects of Christmas. Like it or lump it, Christmas was conceived to celebrate the birth of Christ.
Or should I say, the etymology of the word Christmas refers to Christ.
here's quite a lot of food for thought...
Its a bit of a history lesson
http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooc.html
Christians being the nicest people on Earth? I've never in my life came across a mean Christian. At least I don't think so. I have seen Christians spend a lot, yes, and I have even seen them go to services and things of that nature. This is my opinion:
I agree with post 5. Well said Rachel! However, I think ppl are allowed to believe what they want. But if you're going to be a Christian, don't try to shove it down their throats, don't be rude, etc etc. If you've already tried convincing them, that's fine. But stop trying to influence them in any other way. If they've already made up their mind, they've made it up--and there's NOTHING--I repeat--nothing--that YOU OR ANYONE ELSE can do to change that!!!
Oh I forgot to mention, I'm a Christian, proud of it, I try not to be rude unless someone is really giving me a hard time. And yes, I do believe in giving and believe in the true meaning of Christmas. So yeah, I'm both ways. Just curious, is there anything wrong with that? NOt trying to be rude, just asking your opinion.
I wish there were more people out there like you. These days either people are too pushy and try to force their beliefs on others or they're too afraid to say anything lest they should offend someone. It's nice to find someone in the middle who's a Christian too.
Thanks!